Episode 410: Money Talks: Economics And Personal Finance In K-12 Classrooms

October is National Economic Education Month! Celebrate by bringing personal finance to your students. Join us in conversation with Sherry Anthony and Craig Ellis to learn more!

TRANSCRIPT

Ashley Mengwasser: Hello educators. Welcome to Classroom Conversations. The platform for Georgia's teachers. Classroom Conversations is a joint presentation of the Georgia Department of Education and Georgia Public Broadcasting. I'm your host, Ashley Mengwasser. Although finally I get to use my nickname in the right context today, just call me A$h Money. That's S with the dollar sign, by the way. Money, is it some sought after oft elusive thing or an acquired skill? Either way, financial literacy requires discipline. So much so, economics and personal finance has become a focus of its own within Georgia's K-12 social studies classrooms, things are about to get personal in the studio as we discuss personal finance. With me in studio are two educator experts on the subject, both winners I totally bet on. Craig Ellis teaches economics at Oconee County High School. Craig and his students reign as Personal Finance Challenge state champions. And representing financial education in the elementary school scene is Sherry Anthony, gifted teacher at LK Moss Elementary and Marion County. Sherry is a Stock Market Game winner. Welcome champions. Craig and Sherry.

Sherry Anthony: Hi.

Ashley Mengwasser: How are you?

Sherry Anthony: Great, great.

Craig Ellis: Great, how are you?

Ashley Mengwasser: I'm great. I have never been surrounded by so much talent on one episode. What grades do you guys teach? We'll start with you, Sherry.

Sherry Anthony: This year I'm teaching fifth grade gifted students.

Ashley Mengwasser: Fifth grade gifted. Craig?

Craig Ellis: Teach mainly seniors economics and ninth graders' government.

Ashley Mengwasser: The older kids, as we'll say. What is the Stock Market Game that you won, Sherry?

Sherry Anthony: The Stock Market Game is sponsored through the Georgia Council of Economic Education, and we compete with other teams across the state. Children are given, they're put into teams and they have $100,000 of virtual money that they get to invest in stock.

Ashley Mengwasser: 100Gs.

Sherry Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Mengwasser: And you guys won locally?

Sherry Anthony: We've won locally. We've won congressional district, and we've also won state twice.

Ashley Mengwasser: Incredible. So the objective is to see how much you can do with your virtual 100,000?

Sherry Anthony: How much profit they can make. The earnings.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, right. What were the earnings when your state champion team won?

Sherry Anthony: One of them won, we started off with 100,000 and we turned it into 149,000 in 10 weeks. Although my students are gifted, they're participating in a program that's open to all students. Any classroom in my entire school can teach the Stock Market Game and participate in our high school middle school do that from time to time too. So it's not just for gifted kids, it's for everybody. Homeschool, classrooms, anybody's welcome to participate.

Ashley Mengwasser: All right. Craig, what is the Personal Finance Challenge that you and your students won?

Craig Ellis: Yeah, so the Personal Finance Challenge starts with some multiple choice questions and once you score high enough on that, your team is given a case study of a family and they have some time to study this case study and have to present to a group of personal finance industry people, things that the family's doing well, things they could improve upon, and some things they could look to do better in the future so they could have a brighter financial future.

Ashley Mengwasser: All right, like real financial advisors looking at a portfolio?

Craig Ellis: Yes, more or less.

Ashley Mengwasser: Very nice. How did you get into the teaching profession, particularly in the economics arena?

Craig Ellis: As far as economics go, it was just my first year teaching. I was given an economics class and I got to where I really enjoyed it and from there a lot of people didn't want to teach economics, so I got to teach pretty much all the economics classes.

Ashley Mengwasser: But you have a background in banking, Craig?

Craig Ellis: Sort of. I mean, when I was in college I did work at a bank for a few years and that did help when it came to teaching economics, yes.

Ashley Mengwasser: So why did you become a teacher in the first place?

Craig Ellis: So, I originally did not want to be a teacher. My parents were teachers and that was the last thing I wanted to do. But I was taking a history class in college and I was listening to the professor and I just remembered how much I enjoyed history and I thought I want to teach that. So once I started teaching, I taught a history class and I realized I enjoyed learning history, not teaching history,

But I did have a passion for teaching economics. I learned really fast.

Ashley Mengwasser: So here you are, passion and purpose combined. Sherry, what brought you into the teaching profession?

Sherry Anthony: Well, I originally worked in the human resources area for a company for a number of years and my job was phased over to another state and I could not relocate, so I took some time off and stayed at home. But I always had a love of school. I loved going to school, I enjoyed going to college and I wanted to just share that love with others. So I'm sitting around one day and I'm like, "I need to go back to school and get my teaching degree." And the rest is history.

Ashley Mengwasser: So here you are.

Sherry Anthony: Here I am. Love it.

Ashley Mengwasser: Why economics and personal finance for the elementary years?

Sherry Anthony: Well, I picked up the gifted class and they said teach them something different. And it seemed like the economics was an unchartered territory. The stock market, Stock Market Game was brand new. It's actually new to our area. Families are not even familiar with it really in our area. And so I got in touch with Chris through the Georgia Council of Economic Education. He got me started in it. They're full of resources and it picked up and it caught on through the school. I mean, I have other students come in and say, "Hey, I want to play Stock Market Game with you guys."

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, the culture of that just caught on. The word stock market as a mid-30 something give me both excitement and trepidation. So I can't imagine how that feels as an elementary schooler, but they probably think it's cool.

Sherry Anthony: They do. They learn about it in their other class through the Great Depression.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, yeah.

Sherry Anthony: And the stock market crash and then we take it further with the Stock Market Game and how that crash actually occurred and how you could get out of it. So they were very intrigued by it. And then they actually said, "Well now we're doing stock market, just like what happened in history."

Ashley Mengwasser: You two are the experts here. Would you tell me, I'm going to offer up some financial pointers, if these are either on the money or if they come up short? You ready Craig?

Craig Ellis: I'm ready.

Ashley Mengwasser: You guys can just jump in. You too, Sherry, whenever you like. Here's the first one, thinking about and saving for retirement is for your 20s and beyond.

Craig Ellis: I think that's all the money, but it could start even earlier.

Sherry Anthony: Yeah, that's what I was thinking earlier too.

Ashley Mengwasser: Earlier than your 20s?

Sherry Anthony: No later. I would say no later than your 20s. To be successful, you want to retire or build up that financial-

Ashley Mengwasser: Acumen. Yeah.

Sherry Anthony: Yeah, as soon as you can and get it going.

Ashley Mengwasser: No later than your 20s is a good spin on it, but that it could start earlier helps me out.

Craig Ellis: If you're willing to start earlier, one of the things I like to do with my students is show them a compound interest calculator. If you're saving a little bit of money now to see how much money that can grow and the younger you start, the longer period of time you have for that money to grow. So if you're willing to start early, you can really build up a lot of money.

Ashley Mengwasser: It compounds. Got you. Here's another one, comparing debit and credit. Debit is safer than credit. Credit is dangerous. Whoa. Any thoughts?

Sherry Anthony: Credit can be good if you use it wisely. You have to be taught how to use credit. Credit cannot just be given to someone without some training or background into it. It can be very dangerous if you're just given credit and that's what I tell my children. You can have credit, but you got to know how to use credit. Be responsible with it.

Ashley Mengwasser: Credit can be wielded responsible with it like a tool.

Craig Ellis: One of my favorite answers, it depends. Not everybody's suited well for credit, but ask the person who's had a hard time getting their bank to help them when their debit card number got stolen. So credit, as far as credit cards, I should say, could have a particular place for certain things. So it depends.

Ashley Mengwasser: Absolutely. How about this one? You don't need a checking account until you have a job. You laughed at that one. He scoffed, I think. What do you think?

Craig Ellis: Well, old school me says you don't, but maybe today with financial apps and things like that, maybe you can to some extent get away with that. But I think you need to have a relationship with a bank or a credit union. I think that helps down the road. If you're eventually looking to get mortgage or you're looking to get other loans, having that relationship with a credit union or a bank and pay a big dividends.

Sherry Anthony: To build that relationship is important.

Ashley Mengwasser: I never thought of that. Do I have a good relationship with my bank now? I'm asking myself a lot of questions. How about this one? You need a lot of money if you want to start investing.

Sherry Anthony: No, not at all.

Craig Ellis: No.

Ashley Mengwasser: No?

Sherry Anthony: No.

Ashley Mengwasser: You can start with how much?

Sherry Anthony: You can start with less than a hundred dollars.

Ashley Mengwasser: Well, my gosh, mind-blowing. And one last one, you should never touch savings money.

Sherry Anthony: I think that depends on your circumstance or what's going on.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. But we have this image in our mind that savings is off limits. It's meant to sit there and do nothing, but sometimes it is for something. It should be used.

Craig Ellis: I think it's what depends what you're saving for. Because I think we say saving sometime. We're talking about investing for 40 years down the road for our retirement, which is that's the money you don't want to touch. If you're talking about savings as far as your emergency fund, you want to touch it when you are in emergency and you need it. So it depends on what that savings is for exactly.

Sherry Anthony: Yeah. You've got to have a game plan for your savings.

Ashley Mengwasser: There you go. Have an applied purpose for the money. Well that makes perfect sense. You guys. I was an English major, but all of my friends and college were econ majors. And I came to econ vicariously through their class textbook Freakonomics. They were looking in the book at things like naming data and popularity. Are you exploring any of these kinds of trends in your classrooms with your students or your students aware of any trends around economics at such a young age?

Sherry Anthony: My students have learned trends as far as what's hot and what's not. Also with the seasons, they've learned the trends at Christmastime, in the springtime, they've learned to follow those. They follow trends on what their friends like, what their family's like. What's going on on television is a big influence. What's going on on social media is a big influence and how it will affect economics.

Ashley Mengwasser: So, the trends and the customs of the time, we may not even know there's a pattern to them, but later we can look back and see. So you're teaching your students now to be aware of things as they're happening.

Sherry Anthony: And to record everything.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, that's smart.

Sherry Anthony: Record. And that's how they find those trends. Depending on the time of the year, the hour of the day, that type of thing.

Ashley Mengwasser: Fascinating. Anything to add to that?

Craig Ellis: Yeah, speaking of that, trends I've been asked several times this year by students, "Hey Mr. Ellis, I saw this on TikTok. Is it true?" So there are some trends out there as far as places that students might go to get information that we would've never have thought about going to. And sometimes not knowing if they need to take that as trustworthy information or not trustworthy information.

Ashley Mengwasser: Helping them see whether those sites are reputable, those sources. What personal finance practices do each of you embrace daily? Can you think of one? Sherry, what's one thing you do every day?

Sherry Anthony: I just constantly watch my money. I think about ahead of time what I'm going to spend, what I'm going to save, what my necessities are. If I'm going to splurge, I stop and think, am I where I can splurge? Is it time for me to splurge or not splurge, but I'm just always aware of my money and how I'm spending.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yes. And one thing you said that I found very interesting is you don't spend without thinking of the flip side of that coin, pun intended, which is how do I replace that money I just spent? Which is fascinating. I don't think like that. I'm going to start, Sherry. What about you, Craig, what's a personal finance practice you embrace?

Craig Ellis: Overall, I'm pretty frugal kind of guy. No, but I'm pretty good at the whole pay yourself first. I'm pretty disciplined with that. As far as soon as I get my paycheck, I have my money that goes automatically into my Roth IRA and my daughter's 529 plans and taking care of my life insurance and all that stuff. So I'm pretty good about the pay yourself first.

Ashley Mengwasser: That's good. I think that's a mantra that people forget. I like that very much. Well, shall we delve into the depths of this discipline, economics and personal finance or EPF for today's conversation. In your presence I'm aware that I need to budget our time wisely, so I'm going to get started. The standards for social studies and K12 include standards for economics and personal finance. Today, I'll call it EPF. When teaching personal finance and secondary education, what skills do you teach? Craig?

Craig Ellis: I would say probably critical thinking skills to some extent. I mean, we were talking about personal finance, a lot of it is, and when I say critical, making good, wise, personal decisions. Looking at costs and benefits. When you're talking about, I'm glad you said economics, personal finance. I feel like you really can't separate those two out. We're looking at economic concepts like scarcity and opportunity costs and marginal analysis. Thinking about do I do a little bit more of this? Do I do a little bit more of that? And what am I giving up? I think looking at those incremental decisions, making decisions incrementally and looking at the big picture and what am I giving up when I do something?

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. What about you, Sherry? What are you teaching at the elementary level?

Sherry Anthony: The same thing as Craig had just mentioned, but also we teach supply and demand. That's really big. Actually, I have to go back. I take where my students are and I go back and we talk about how money works to begin with. The younger children, the elementary age really, they don't have a good concept of what money is, what cash is. They just know everything's on a plastic card.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, that's right.

Sherry Anthony: And it's always going to be there. If you want it, you just get out that plastic card and you go buy.

Ashley Mengwasser: Exactly.

Sherry Anthony: So, they have no concept of that. So I start at that point and we work backwards.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yes.

Sherry Anthony: We start with the card and how it goes through the bank, how the money is earned and gets to the bank. So, we start very basic, and we build it back up.

Ashley Mengwasser: How money moves.

Sherry Anthony: Right.

Ashley Mengwasser: Money movement. And you guys were hinting at this. I think that the way that your students think of money is very much informed by the community that they live in, how they grew up, the messages implied in direct that they're receiving around money and their upbringing.

Sherry Anthony: That's right.

Ashley Mengwasser: So what are you sensing from your students? You just told us a bit about what their cognitive level is, but is there an expectation of wealth and money's just always there or is there an expectation of scarcity?

Sherry Anthony: My children think money is always going to be there. And I think that's why they have some difficulty with history sometimes. They don't understand why was there ever a time when there was not money? Why was there a time when the stock market crashed, those type of things. Why was there a time when had to talk about taxation and things like that? So you have to really back them up a lot. They really think money's going to always be there. Through the Stock Market Game, they have learned your money is not always going to be there and how easy it can go away.

Ashley Mengwasser: Exactly right. And I know for you, Craig, a big part of it is just embracing wherever students are on their journey, wherever family they come from, whatever they've learned about money, and really imparting a message of hope to them. Tell me about that.

Craig Ellis: Yeah, I mean I just have a wide range. Some students who think money will always be there, it comes on a permanent gift from their parents maybe, or students who all of a sudden they're senior in high school are having to work for everything so they can have money to do all the little extra stuff. But helping those students realize that even if your family doesn't have a lot, if you can start early at a young age or if you're willing to save a little money, set a little money aside that there's hope for you to build up wealth over the long haul.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. Why is it important for students in all grades to learn about economics and personal finance?

Craig Ellis: One, to be an informed citizen. So when you're hearing things about inflation or you're hearing things about the unemployment rate or you're hearing things about the debt ceiling or something like that, you have some understanding of what's going on so you can take the information you're given and run that through your own head and make a better decision about how that might affect you or how it might affect you as a voter or whatever it might be.

Sherry Anthony: It helps them to become a much productive citizen in their environment if they have a part in it, rather than just sitting back, taking all the time, they can be productive and help provide. And it doesn't have to be in a big way.

Ashley Mengwasser: Instead of being on the fringe. Well, what is your favorite EPF lesson to teach students? That's the first part of my question. And then what do you say is the topic that engages them most or garners the most interest? What would you say?

Craig Ellis: One of my favorite lessons I do is we talk about inflation. I give all the students some beans. We have a class auction, so I'll auction off, I'll have some candy auction off and some bonus points. I give all the beans out and auction everything off. And all of a sudden I'll ask anybody some warm beans and I'll pass out more beans. So we cause inflation. It's one of my favorite lessons because it really demonstrates inflation, how it drives down your buying power of your dollar and all sorts of things like that. And the students really get into it and that's one of my favorite things, because hands-on and they're really getting excited and enjoy.

Ashley Mengwasser: Very demonstrative.

Craig Ellis: Yeah.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. Yeah. And do they like that as well? What's their favorite to learn?

Craig Ellis: They enjoy that activity. But I think the beauty about economics in the high school is they've had some other classes and it seems more relevant to them, the economics and personal finance part. So I think overall, most of the economics part, but probably more so I mean the personal finance issue of it.

Ashley Mengwasser: How about for you, Sherry?

Sherry Anthony: One of the lessons that my students enjoy each year that I teach it is we do a lesson with candy bars. And I'll bring in a variety of candy bars. It's a supply and demand lesson. And they all have fake money, they get a few dollars, they get a small stack of $1 bills. And I'll break out some candy bars and they can purchase a candy bar. And I usually will start off with something that they don't like, such as dark chocolate.

Ashley Mengwasser: What? Wait till they get older.

Sherry Anthony: But they don't like it when they're that young.

Ashley Mengwasser: No.

Sherry Anthony: The candy bar will be a dollar a piece. They all sit there. They know there's more candy bars in the bag, so they wait to see what else I bring out. So then I'll bring out just a solid milk chocolate bar. And I might have one or two give up a dollar to buy that, and then we slowly build up until it's something they like. Peanut butter cups. Oh.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh. Yep.

Sherry Anthony: Well, peanut butter cups are not a dollar. Peanut butter cups are $3.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yes.

Sherry Anthony: And so some of them put their money back in their pocket and they're like, "Nope, I'm not giving up $3." And some, "Oh yeah, I'll take two of them. Here's $6." And then at the end I'll bring out something that they really, really like. Well, the ones that opted for the $3 peanut buttercup no longer have the money for what they really do likes and they're wanting to trade and barter and it can go on and on and on, but they love it.

Ashley Mengwasser: That sounds really fun. I think you both approach this in a very immersive way. What tips do you have for teachers to design their own economics and personal finance lessons to make the content relevant to their students?

Sherry Anthony: I tell teachers to take something in their own life and turn it into a lesson, a shopping event, a sale or anything. Just something that catches your attention and your life, you can turn around and reteach that to your students.

Ashley Mengwasser: That's really interesting.

Sherry Anthony: Those are the best lessons.

Ashley Mengwasser: Good tip, Sherry. What do you say, Craig?

Craig Ellis: I always tell my students that the only thing I'm an expert on is myself. And so good or bad, I try to share experiences that I've had because I think, one, they realize you're being honest and genuine, that you might not be perfect. And I think that really does work.

Ashley Mengwasser: Might not be.

Craig Ellis: Or definitely not perfect. But, I think that really resonates with them. They see you as, hey, I can relate to this person, their faults and they've learned from this. And always try to, "Hey, I did this well or I didn't do this well." And I think that really does resonate with them.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. Well, how do you champion learning this subject within your community? With parents? Do you leverage relationships with local businesses? How do you engage others to make this bigger than just the classroom lesson?

Sherry Anthony: I have classroom speakers come in. Usually I'll get somebody from one of our local banks to come in and talk to the students. And they always provide information that's new to me as well too. So they love that. They love to have a speaker. And the people from the bank love to come in and talk. We've made trips to the local grocery stores. And children have been able to bring their own money in and they have to calculate their own change when they make their exchanges for those purchases and things like that. So it does tie in the community.

Ashley Mengwasser: And I know you're rather a celebrity in your town, Sherry. People come up to you in the grocery store knowing that you've won the Stock Market Game.

Sherry Anthony: People ask me all the time, can I invest some money for them? Can my students invest money for them? And I'll let them know really quick that might not be a good idea.

Ashley Mengwasser: You're like, and for me, that's the law of diminishing returns. No, thank you. How do you champion it with your school community?

Craig Ellis: Most of mine is just encouraging stuff that we do beyond just a classroom. Now we do the Stock Market Game, which in the classroom, but we also participate in the Georgia Personal Finance Challenge and The Econ challenge, which is a different, one's more personal finance related, one's more econ challenge, just to give students a chance to do other things other than things we do in the classroom.

Ashley Mengwasser: Outside that specific lesson. Well, if your students could just take one concept away from your class, what would you want that to be? Any thoughts on that?

Sherry Anthony: To save for their future. And how easy it is to save for their future. It doesn't mean they have to give up everything. My students think, well, I don't want to save because they're shoes I want to buy. There's this I want to buy. I want to go see this movie. Well, you can still do those things and you can save.

Ashley Mengwasser: That's right. It's just a function.

Sherry Anthony: It's a balance.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. Balance and making it a habit. An intentional practice.

Craig Ellis: And I was going to add that and just remembering that everything has a cost. I think Sherry mentioned earlier, I could do this with my money, but what am I giving up? And I think sometimes we, as special students, have a hard time thinking about what am I giving up by using my time or using my money to do this that I could do other things that maybe benefit me more. But thinking on that, some of that's the cost you can see, and some of that's the cost that's not always clear.

Ashley Mengwasser: Right. Or the unintended cost. I like that you included time in that because we know time is so valuable too, Craig. Well, what do you guys want to offer up to our educators as your most helpful free resources that you use in your classrooms to promote EPF learning in theirs? Whether we've got games, competitions that you've mentioned, other things like that.

Sherry Anthony: The Georgia Department of Education has just a ton of resources under their social studies standards for teachers. And I'm not sure if everybody goes in there and looks at those.

Ashley Mengwasser: No, DOE plug. Check that out.

Sherry Anthony: Well, yeah, I mean there are videos, there's lesson plans, there's resources, there's tons of information. Besides that there's also the Federal Reserve Bank. Contact any of those, they will send you tons of resources. They will be glad to do that. They also do field trips. The one in Atlanta did a field trip for me. My kids loved it.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, really?

Sherry Anthony: We even set the alarm off when we went to the Federal Resource Bank.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, boy.

Sherry Anthony: So that was memorable. The Georgia Council of Economic Education, they want you to contact them. They want to come to you. They want to provide resources too. So there's a ton of resources. All you have to do is ask.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, I love that. I can just see the headlines now, Sherry, Elementary students, Rob Atlanta Fed.

Sherry Anthony: Oh yeah, we were frozen there for a moment.

Ashley Mengwasser: Frozen in time. What would you like to share with teachers?

Craig Ellis: Yeah. I'll piggyback on one thing that Sherry said. If you're a high school economics teacher and you don't know about the Georgia Council and Economic Education, I don't know how you function and really benefit your students. They do an amazing amount of stuff to help teachers find creative and engaging ways to teach economics that pay huge dividends because they get students involved. There's also a couple of things that have been partnered with GPB, Econ Express. There's some stuff you can pull online as different topics and stuff like that. And they have a game called Lights, Camera, Budget! Where it's tied into the movie industry. You get to plan out a movie, but you earn money to budget your movie by answering personal finance questions.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, fascinating.

Sherry Anthony: I like that.

Ashley Mengwasser: I know what I'll be doing this weekend, Craig. Thank you so much. I appreciate you both being here today. Sherry, Craig, thank you very much.

Sherry Anthony: I've enjoyed it. Thank you.

Craig Ellis: Thank you.

Ashley Mengwasser: You have taught us that it is not about the almighty dollar, but the dollar mightily applied. Phineas Taylor Barnum, him, P. T. Barnum, the co-founder of Barnum & Bailey Circus. I've been to a few of those. He said this, "Money is a terrible master, but an excellent servant." There's good reason to put real stock in teaching economics and personal finance in our schools. Money talks and finance tools learned young prime students for a boundless life. Just like the investment you make in your students daily because you're a great teacher. Here at the Classroom Conversations ATM, you'll be eligible for another withdrawal next week when a brand new episode clears. In the meantime, just keep it 100. Spend your teaching time and your money wisely, for Craig and Sherry. Bye for now. Funding for Classroom Conversations is made possible through the School Climate Transformation Grant.