The next generation of firefighters learned how to fight fires while in prison

California has long relied on its prison population to help fight wildfires. It is one of at least 14 states that operates fire camps for incarcerated people to train to fight fires.

It's an alternative sentencing option — an opportunity to serve the public as wildfires become increasingly urgent.

For some who attend fire camp, it becomes a pathway to a life calling.

“I didn't really know, like, you know, what a wildland firefighter was. But once I got there, as time went on, I actually embraced it and I fell in love with it. It's definitely a dangerous job, right? But that kind of thing kind of, you know, thrilled me,” says Royal Ramey, the co-founder and CEO of the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program, a nonprofit based in California that helps formerly incarcerated firefighters find employment.

He spoke with All Things Considered host Juana Summers about how his organization is aiming to remove roadblocks for previously incarcerated firefighters and expand the profession in the process.

This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Interview highlights

Juana Summers: I understand that you were released from prison in 2014. And when you were, you began pursuing a professional career in firefighting. What was that process like and how long did it take for you to find a job?

Royal Ramey: Oh, man. How long do you got? ‘Cause we could talk about this all day. Honestly, it took about 11 months to figure it out. How I felt was, like, either I'm going to be a wildland firefighter, or I'm going to, you know, couch-surf or whatever at my mom's house. It was either that or nothing else. It was definitely a challenge. You have certifications that you need, and then the application process — understanding how to present yourself. Like, that's definitely a thing as well.

Summers: You've talked so much about the challenge of navigating that landscape of finding a job. I wonder, how does your program help people tackle these barriers?

Ramey: We help navigate multiple things. So we give you the certifications you need in order for you to be able to gain an entry-level position with the Forest Service, Cal Fire or any other wildland agency. And then we also help you with the job application process. And then we also help with, you know, tech literacy 'cause I notice a lot of folks is — that when they come out of prison, it's kind of hard to navigate a website. We focus on the expungement process. So [California Governor] Gavin Newsom passed a law and what it pretty much does is help people that come out of, like, California conservation camps — being able to get their record expunged, which is amazing because it provides an opportunity where folks can apply to not only just fire careers, but, like, you know, they can have a brand-new life.

Summers: You first started pursuing a firefighting career about 10 years ago, and I'm just curious, as you look at the field, what has changed? Do you think it's any easier today for formerly incarcerated firefighters in the state of California to find jobs in the field than it was when you were getting started?

Ramey: Honestly, it is. I think that law helped. But I think also some of the firefighters understand that folks that come out of camp have great skills. They understand what it feels like to sleep in the dirt, understand the grind of that occupation. And I think it's just really the stigma — getting around that — and the labor shortage that we have here in California has really put us in a position where we need all hands on deck. We're having a program where we vet folks out. We try to pick people that's serious about the career and wanting to change their life. And they understand that firefighting is not a nine-to-five. It's a lifestyle.

Summers: Are there things about this career that you think might be something that's enticing to folks who have served prison sentences? I guess I'm curious — is it the adrenaline, like you were talking about? Is it the public service? Is it something else?

Ramey: It is definitely those things — cause it all depends on the person, right? But for me, like, when you're told that, “You're not this, and you're not that,” it's all these negative connotations that's constantly bombarding you throughout your life. So when it gets flipped and say, “Wow, like, you're a hero. Like, you're actually contributing to folks in the community,” that's something that, if you never had in your life, it's powerful. It's inspiring. You feel so validated.

Summers: I want to turn the conversation, if I can, to climate because we know that, as global temperatures are rising, wildfires are burning more acres of land and they're lasting longer, which, of course, means there's a greater demand for people to fight fires. And as agencies like the U.S. Forest Service have reported, there's a chronic shortage of people who are willing to do it. So I wonder — how do you square the high demand for firefighters with the fact that there are a lot of people who want to make a career out of this and can't figure out how to do so?

Ramey: We know that we need bodies. We need folks that can be able to get in a position to help this crisis. We got to look at all options. You know, we need to expose folks to these jobs and these occupations. So, I'm going to be frank. And this is real. And I hate to go with this race thing, but, like, it's a lot of white, Caucasian males in the space. It's a lot of separation in this job. And I think, now, if we really want to tackle this issue, we need to educate people on all levels of what this climate crisis is, and then we need to embrace and then integrate. And we need to bring everybody to the table so they can be able to help with the solution.

And utilizing nonprofit organizations, you know, community-based organizations that have these conservation camps, really, like put money into them so they can get more exposure. I think that once folks get exposed to it, then this might spark an interest in them. When I went to prison, I remember seeing, like, Smokey the Bear on a commercial or two, and I didn't even know what it is. When I looked at these red engines that was flying by, you know, when I was growing up, I never seen nobody that looked like me, so that wasn't even a thought, right? I didn't never think that, like, that could be me one day.