Episode 511: Digital Creativity: Allow Space to Create

Looking to encourage student creativity with technology, but not sure where to start? Join us in conversation with Mike Afdahl to learn practical tips that will get your students excited about sharing their ideas!

TRANSCRIPT

Ashley Mengwasser: Friends, educators, stragglers who accidentally stumbled on this podcast, lend me your ears. I come to bring you Classroom Conversations, a place for teachers to share and learn, created by the Georgia Department of Education and Georgia Public Broadcasting. I'm Ashley Mengwasser. How do you like that creative spin on our traditional open a la Julia Caesar? Join me on what will certainly be a ride on the computer science epiphany train today. We're talking digital creativity, part of our computer science leadership series. There are three words that in any other context other than digital creativity might bring strife. The words are, I'm taking space. At work, in relationships, even with your stage five clinger pet, these words might wreak havoc. Just add two more words to that when you're talking digital creativity and you're in sacred territory. Say, "I'm taking space to create," then shazam, that space is accepted, even honored, so the magic of creation can begin. With space, with openness, creativity typically abounds. According to one study for example, for 72% of us, creative ideas emerge. Where? In the shower. Just don't slip and hit your head when you rush to write them down. When we're talking about digital creativity today, we'll explore the untold creative aspects of technology such as digital art, animation, even game design, and we'll discuss tools and apps that students can use to express their creativity through technology, namely in the digital preparation and presentation of their ideas and work as long as they are given some space to create. My guest is pro-digital, pro-creativity, and soon I hope pro-podcast. I'm assigning that to you now, Mike. Mike Afdahl is passionate about educational technology. Mike says, "Creativity simply means this. I've got an idea in my brain and I want it to come out." Now how we choose to get it out is up to us and to our mastery of some very useful tech tools which we'll explore. He's joining me now, the coordinator of technology services for Northwest RESA, Mike Afdahl, and by name alone he's already an intriguing guest. Hey, Mike.

Mike Afdahl: Hey, thanks for having me.

Ashley Mengwasser: How you doing today?

Mike Afdahl: I'm doing great.

Ashley Mengwasser: Welcome to the podcast, man.

Mike Afdahl: This is amazing. Your intro was phenomenal. The music set the stage.

Ashley Mengwasser: Thank you. I told you we would make it exciting at least. Where does Afdahl all come from?

Mike Afdahl: It comes from Norway. Our farm, which is still running, it's the Afdahl farm, it stands for. "Of the valley." The farm is in the middle of a valley, so that's what they named the farm and then the last name just stuck.

Ashley Mengwasser: How picturesque. What creatures are living on this farm?

Mike Afdahl: Sheep, actually, if you can believe it.

Ashley Mengwasser: Of course.

Mike Afdahl: It's a beautiful landscape. We have a hard time believing that Ingebrit, our great-grandpa, he left-

Ashley Mengwasser: What was his name?

Mike Afdahl: Ingebrit.

Ashley Mengwasser: Of course it was.

Mike Afdahl: His other brother was Andrew. Somehow they ran out of names and they're like, "We're just going to give you Ingebrit and good luck in the new world."

Ashley Mengwasser: That is such a great story. Where in the US are you from? It's not Georgia.

Mike Afdahl: It's not Georgia.

Ashley Mengwasser: Tell us how you got here to Georgia.

Mike Afdahl: Originally, I am from Minnesota. That's where my parents had settled, and then I met a girl and she was from Georgia and so I chased her down and stuck around.

Ashley Mengwasser: You chased her down willingly?

Mike Afdahl: Willingly, yeah.

Ashley Mengwasser: And consensually, I hope.

Mike Afdahl: Yup. I left everything behind.

Ashley Mengwasser: Now you have three kids.

Mike Afdahl: Three kids.

Ashley Mengwasser: Tell me about your wild life in this family.

Mike Afdahl: Oh, so I have a son. He is going to high school, but he is into herpetology, he's into caving, he's into photography, he flies a drone and it keeps him pretty busy. He's a black belt in Taekwondo, so he has reached that age where he can take me down, but I won't let him admit that publicly. I have a daughter who loves to read. She's a gymnast and she's got just an outstanding sense of humor. My other daughter is five. She loves horses, she loves to read and she loves to play chess, if you can believe it. We keep ourselves pretty busy between those three.

Ashley Mengwasser: The family spends a lot of time outdoors. Do you ever take your computer to the great outdoors?

Mike Afdahl: I try not to.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh good, boundaries.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah, I try to set boundaries. Now my kids will say I'm on my device too much because sometimes work pulls you in. We have a rule in our house at the dinner table, no devices, and I try to go outside. Unless I'm taking a picture, I try to have devices away.

Ashley Mengwasser: Device free. Where is the weirdest place you've taken your computer? Can you think of it?

Mike Afdahl: Oh my gosh.

Ashley Mengwasser: Let me think, I might have one.

Mike Afdahl: The weirdest place. I'll tell you the weirdest place is I had to do a virtual presentation to a group in Georgia when I was in the middle of Alaska. This is pre-pandemic and so they were amazed that technology of presenting virtually was an option. I had this picturesque mountain in the background. It wasn't a fake Zoom background like we have now.

Ashley Mengwasser: They were probably incredulous.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah. I had to wake up early. It was like 4:00 Am because it was 8:00 AM out east. That's probably the furthest and most remote place I had to take it.

Ashley Mengwasser: It makes me think of the new series of True Detective. Have you seen it?

Mike Afdahl: No, but I love the first three seasons. This the one with Jodie Foster?

Ashley Mengwasser: It's set in Alaska.

Mike Afdahl: Is it?

Ashley Mengwasser: That's why I want you to go home and watch that over the week.

Mike Afdahl: Two pieces of homework is to get on more podcasts and the other is to watch True Detective.

Ashley Mengwasser: That's exactly right. Write that down. I think the weirdest place I've ever taken my computer was to a laboratory, which doesn't sound weird, but we were looking at some fecal matter for something. I said, "Should I maybe protect my machine during this process?" You never know.

Mike Afdahl: Any time you bring up fecal matter, it's going to be weird.

Ashley Mengwasser: Sure. I think so too. Definitely just having your computer with you all the time is the way of our digital age, and that's what we're going to talk about today. What is the mission of your work at Northwest RESA?

Mike Afdahl: Mission of our work is to empower educators. We do that a variety ways. We train them, whether it's whole group, or I love working one-on-one with teachers, or small groups. We can do that, in our department it's technology and data. Data is not just looking at numbers, it is taking visualized data sets and then really transforming what the information is telling you, asking questions and then making decisions. Oftentimes in that data process, we focus on the actual data instead of, "We've got to make decisions on this." That's what I'm really passionate about with data. Then with technology it could... How can we make a teacher's job easier and more effective using the technology that's available? We love to go into schools and show them how to do that.

Ashley Mengwasser: Very well said. Your head's in the right place. Now Northwest, what area of the state?

Mike Afdahl: That is anything from Dade County down to Paulding and following that I-75. We say if it's Northwest of Cobb County, that's the territory that we cover.

Ashley Mengwasser: You get into this empower educator mission honestly, because you used to be one, right?

Mike Afdahl: That's right, yeah.

Ashley Mengwasser: Tell me about that.

Mike Afdahl: I started off as a self-contained sixth grade teacher, but then was a high school math teacher and then became a department chair. I was an instructional coach, transitioned to a coordinator of instructional technology, was a technology director, and now I work at RESA and I work with all those groups from the curriculum instruction side to the technology directors to instructional technology.

Ashley Mengwasser: I know that in your work you have a very ardent three-pronged philosophy about using technology of any type in the classroom. What is that?

Mike Afdahl: This came to me early working with technology that if it's not... Technology should do three things. It should save you time, it should engage your students, and it should allow you to learn more about your students. If it's not doing one of those three things, then we need to... You don't have to use it. Just because something is new and flashy, it doesn't mean that it has to be used. Because you may have better methods that are meeting your educational goals than just, hey, this is flashy and it's expensive. We want to look at how does this piece of technology improve those three areas?

Ashley Mengwasser: Excellent point, Mike, because teachers ain't got time for that. They have enough going on.

Mike Afdahl: Ain't nobody got time for that.

Ashley Mengwasser: It should be benefiting them. Share, just generally, we'll get into the specifics soon, but examples of how technology has revolutionized some of the fields I mentioned in digital art, animation, gaming.

Mike Afdahl: Really, technology, even if I'm looking back from the caveman days, they're painting on the side of the wall. Now we had new technology, the brushes. Even today we're studying da Vinci's brushstrokes with technology to understand his technology at the time. As technology has evolved, art has had to change. As we've had more tools, we're able to express ourselves not just in better ways but in more ways and allowing that to be in better ways, but in more ways, and allowing that to be accessible to more people. And so I think about now we could take a photograph, but in the old days, to make a photograph enhanced, we needed a dark room. We needed to develop our own film, but in the advent of digital photography, now we're able to produce photographs without having to have that expensive equipment. I remember the days of Wolf One-Hour Photo.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, yeah.

Mike Afdahl: And you had to pay a lot of money to produce a picture, but now it's on your phone and you can share it instantly. Even before it's done downloading, it can be on Instagram before it's on your phone. And so these digital tools allow that accessibility, but really, like you said, is to take something I have in my brain and how can I make that appear.

Ashley Mengwasser: Like you said. I was quoting you, sir.

Mike Afdahl: Oh, I don't like to quote myself.

Ashley Mengwasser: I will.

Mike Afdahl: And so now we are able to use things like Photoshop in which we can edit those photos in ways that we hadn't before, or even videography, and that's one of the cool examples. For a brief moment in time, I taught a video broadcasting course and every kid had a camera, a video camera. And if we had gone back 10, 15 years ago, we would have to have expensive equipment. They would have to do it in school, but their projects were on the weekend they would film using their phones, which if you had talked to my grandpa when he was growing up like, "We're going to use a phone to take pictures," then we would've thought he was a little crazy if he tried to do that.

Ashley Mengwasser: Sure.

Mike Afdahl: But now everyone has these tools accessible, and that's really increased access, which is really what I think technology can allow us.

Ashley Mengwasser: And you're reminding us to pay homage to the evolution of this. We didn't just arrive at where we are. It took a long time to get here. But there is a big philosophical question here, whether compared to traditional artistic forms you've asked, is digital creativity, creativity and technology? Is it more creativity? Is it less creativity? Or is it different creativity?

Mike Afdahl: I think it's different creativity. And so I'll go back to the dark room, and that took a skillset in order to make a good photograph. But when we have digital photography, now it takes a different skillset for me to take this image that I have. How can I enhance it? That's Photoshop or Lightroom or other tools out there. But that's a different skill set than operating more analog equipment. And now as we enter this age of AI, which is we're still trying to figure out, now I can just type an image into existence, but what we're finding is that it's not always perfect. It's not the way that we want it to be. And so that's the next iteration. But even the current version of Photoshop, now you can highlight backgrounds. You can change those backgrounds instantly, but you're still looking at, "I have this image in my brain, how can I make that image appear?" And the tools are transforming and the tools are evolving, but I think at the basis of art is we want to express ourselves and we're giving ourselves more tools in order to do that.

Ashley Mengwasser: So, then the differentiation between digital creativity and the more traditional forms of artistic expression is just the tools that we're using. That's the gist of it. So how can educators then foster digital creativity in their young students so that they explore their artistic talents?

Mike Afdahl: So, I think there's age and stage, and I think there was this push that, oh, we need all of our pre-K and kindergarten kids on devices. And there is a time and a place for that, but it's still got to be age and stage appropriate because they're still trying to figure out their fine motor skills. And so instead of having to put them on a tablet and having them draw, which is a way that they can create art, they still need that paper pencil experience because we're still needing them to have those foundational skills.

Ashley Mengwasser: Developmentally.

Mike Afdahl: Developmentally, yes. And introducing technology even early elementary, upper elementary, just not as you have to master this, but exposure that this is possible. Because going back to access, there are ways that some students aren't able to express themselves artistically with traditional methods. But now introducing some technology of here's what's possible, we're able to give them a sense that, "Oh, I can do this even though I may not be as gifted with my fine motor skills. I still have images and I still have ideas I want to express. Some of those tools may allow me to do that." And there are some tools that give some guide rails or we'll call them handlebars that give them an access point into those tools.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. You said accessibility for teachers too. Let's talk about some of those tools that are accessible for educators and inclusive for students to facilitate digital creativity.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah. One of my favorite tools is the Adobe Express because it is free for educators, but it is an early entry into some of the more advanced Adobe suites, Photoshop, Lightroom, Premiere. You can get an ability to edit photos, to create graphic arts, to edit videos, but you don't have to have those full-blown programs because a 5th grader or a 4th grader, a 2nd grader may not be ready for Photoshop or Premiere. So I like Adobe Express and their AI integration has really stepped up. The other one that we really like is Canva.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, yes.

Mike Afdahl: Canva is if you're not paying attention, they're trying to take over not just the creative space, but the office space.

Ashley Mengwasser: Things are popping off on Canva right now.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah, and they just had their big Canva Create launch. And so every year Apple's event, here's the new things that are coming out. And they keep innovating in spaces. And it's important for teachers to know that Canva, again, you can be a novice and create something that looks professional. It's just being able to take the ideas you have in your head and be able to put them out into publication. But then you can become an advanced user in Canva, and instead of just using someone else's template, you can create your own template and share it with others. And Canva, if you want the professional version, if you're not an educator, you pay for it. But educators get Canva for free. So we like free, but we also like to know where the funding sources come from because sometimes there's a lot of digital tools that are free like a puppy that they're free, but what are you giving up?

Ashley Mengwasser: Free like a puppy. That's interesting.

Mike Afdahl: And so sometimes that's your data. Or in the case of educators, free may mean your students' data. And so we want to be able to protect our students' data because we are advocates for them. And if we don't know what we're giving over in order to use something for free like Facebook, it's free. I haven't written them a check, but I know that I'm giving them access to my information. That's the trade-off. But when we look at student advocacy, we want to make sure us as educators are using tools that are also protecting their data.

Ashley Mengwasser: Absolutely. And I love what you said about age and stage. I think that's a good mantra for teachers to remember because that way they can bridle the enthusiasm a bit and make sure that it's not Outpacing what the students can do or what their developmental target should be. Right?

Mike Afdahl: Yeah-

Ashley Mengwasser: That's what I heard you say.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah. You don't want to put something in front of them that they're going to struggle with, but also just you want to give them, here's the next step forward after that, they may be ready for it because not every kid is learned at the same pace, especially when it comes to technology. And the other thing I would tell teachers is that it is okay for you not to be the expert and is okay for your students to know more about a particular tool than you do. And in fact, I celebrate that. And when I did video broadcasting and we were using our video editing tools and they did something, it was like, "I didn't know you could do that," we would stop class and celebrate that. And so that kind of gave them a carrot at that, "Oh, this is a bragging point. And now my mission is not just to finish the project, but to do something that Mr. Afdahl can't do." And that's important. And I think it's especially important for us as adults to model for our kids that learning doesn't stop when you graduate. That I am a learner, a lifelong learner as a teacher. And I think we need more models of that for students. That learning is not just about a grade, but it's about just keep learning. And it's not an easy process, but you still have to work towards it.

Ashley Mengwasser: The journey of learning.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah, the journey. I like that.

Ashley Mengwasser: A very powerful message there. I think it's also exciting for students when they're able to offer up something their teachers can use, "Oh, Ms. so-and-so you hit this command, and that's how you can do that." That's exciting for them. And it gets them involved to the instruction and other things that get them involved in instruction, hands-on activities. Okay. Project-based learning, PBL, what we yell. How can we empower students to experiment and iterate and refine their creative ideas with some PBL based approaches?

Mike Afdahl: Yeah. I think with PBL the... I think what's the temptations is I want something that's out of the box ready to teach and really project-based learning or problem-based learning is really, there is no right solution, and you don't have to have things that are perfected. One of my mantras is chase progression, not perfection. And as long as we are looking at a learner progressing, we are celebrating that. And especially as we're looking at project-based learning or problem-based learning is they're not going to arrive at the right solution. And it is okay for the ideas to be creative, but then a student come to their own conclusion that, "Oh, this isn't feasible." And that's not failure. They didn't complete their...

Mike Afdahl: Oh, this isn't feasible. And that's not failure. They didn't complete their objective, but the goal was them to think-

Ashley Mengwasser: Follow the path.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah, follow the path. And if they reach you to a dead-end, now you know there's a dead-end and that's not going to work. But what we love to see is students creatively finding unique solutions, because even if they don't find one that works at age eight, but we're continuing that for the next 10 years while they're in school with us, they're leaving with a large amount of experience of having to analyze a problem, finding possible solutions and testing the validity of those solutions. And that's a skill that lasts forever. Even as technology changes that skill of pursuing solutions and really just that grit of identifying what works and what doesn't, that's going to last a lifetime.

Ashley Mengwasser: Hopefully they're leaving with the amount of work that they have displayed or exhibited. I know there are virtual galleries, there are online exhibitions, collaborative digital platforms. How can educators leverage technology to showcase and celebrate student work?

Mike Afdahl: Oh, really, it's about communication and really a platform to brag on your students. And what I love about our spaces that we have now is that anyone can publish anything and anyone can share that with large amounts of people. And when I think about the power of that, I think about Friday nights in the South, and where are most people going to be? They're going to be at a football game.

Ashley Mengwasser: At the game.

Mike Afdahl: Which is why do a lot of kids want to show up and play football is because there's an audience that's waiting for them. And so for a lot of students, the grade is important, but really if they know there's an audience that's going to look at this, they are going to want to show their best.

Ashley Mengwasser: They're creating for that.

Mike Afdahl: And any amount of time that you can spend finding an audience to view your student work is a way for you to engage your students, not just in completing a project or an assignment, but really to give them pride and dedication to the work that they're doing. So going back to video, because video is so accessible now, a teacher can make their own video, edit that very easily in some of the tools you mentioned like Adobe Express and Canva, and then being able to share that without a lot of expertise on the teacher part. And so the tools that their students are learning to show their own work are also some of the tools that teachers can use to broadcast their student achievements.

Ashley Mengwasser: Absolutely. Can integrating digital creativity into curriculum, can it promote interdisciplinary learning among the subjects?

Mike Afdahl: Oh, yeah, of course, because really, we have a unique model in education is that you go from one class to another, and that is from the Industrial Revolution, that you do this piece here, you go to this piece here.

Ashley Mengwasser: Interesting.

Mike Afdahl: And the way that you can help bridge that gap to see how all these concepts are interrelated is that you can use technology for them to say, "All right, I need you to synthesize this." One of the great AI tools that we've discovered is something called Curipod, and it could provide feedback on an essay from a historical figure. So as long as that historical figure has words, they're able to use that generative AI to say, "This is what this historical figure might say."

Ashley Mengwasser: How they would react.

Mike Afdahl: How they would react. But you're able to pull in things like historical science heroes like Newton. If we're studying European history, what would Newton have to say about the way you feel about the Tudors? What was that like? And different realms of politics in those areas, and particularly anything in American history as well. But to be able to have one platform or multiple platforms that you can showcase how ideas coalesce together, then you're bringing students that it may not be their favorite subject, but you're able to bring in concepts into those areas that they can show their passions within your subject area.

Ashley Mengwasser: We can utilize it everywhere. And you mentioned AI, so now I have to go there. So let's talk about things like VR, virtual reality, and artificial intelligence. How are they breaking into digital creativity? I think you've given us one example.

Mike Afdahl: Also, we think that AI can do the work for us, but as we've gotten into it, we see that the work that AI is producing isn't as good as we might have expected.

Ashley Mengwasser: Right, yes.

Mike Afdahl: And I used it the other day because we had someone retiring and I wanted to create an image of them singing, and it took several iterations because their ears were messed up, they had seven fingers sometimes.

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh dear.

Mike Afdahl: Yes. So it takes patience to work with it too. Again, it's about getting the idea in my head, and now I'm having to work with this other performer to help relay, "Oh no, this is really what I'm wanting it to look like."

Ashley Mengwasser: Oh, interesting, thinking of AI as a performer, it's a collaboration.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah, it's a collaborator. It can be a feedback mechanism. So here's my essay, or here's my photograph. Give me some feedback on that. And it can do those types of things for you. So it can give a teacher an extra set of eyes and hands, and there's other platforms. Skill Struck is one that has a great AI tutor, but what's unique about it is that the teacher can design the tutor to then provide feedback from a different lens. This is for an essay, or this is coming from the perspective of a scientist. So, it can create these customized tutors that can give that instant feedback. And so, it's shortcutting the system where the teacher had to be the only source of feedback, but in order for a student to get feedback on their essay, the teacher had to grade 30, 100, 120 essays, and that timeframe was pretty long. But now they can get feedback almost instantaneously and then refine their thoughts. But when it comes to VR and AR, AR is one that I land on a little more readily because it's interacting with the real world. VR is a little bit of a challenge for me. And I had a friend when I had mentioned that I struggle with the place for VR in the classroom, and she said, "Oh, I don't struggle." I said, "Oh, really?" She goes, "Yeah, I hate it."

Ashley Mengwasser: Virtual reality.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah, virtual reality. And my thought on it is, especially coming back from the pandemic where we were isolated and our students were on devices, our teachers were on devices. But when we came back, I think the last thing that I want is for a student to be isolated in-

Ashley Mengwasser: Again.

Mike Afdahl: ... another world. Whereas we're back face to face, I want that to be a community of learners. And I'll have other people that will say, "But VR exposes them to other worlds out there." And I think that's true, but is that the best way? And I think I want to capture that time with my classroom that enables that community of learning to take place. And I don't know if isolating them into their own world is the way that can happen.

Ashley Mengwasser: You make a great point. But also more saliently, educators should ask those questions of the tools that they're using and prepare students to harness that tech responsibly and ethically. So how do they do that?

Mike Afdahl: I think one is just, it's having those conversations with your colleagues. I think we tend to get into silos of those conversations. And oftentimes we're afraid, when new technology comes, to provide that check on is this what is the best tool for our educational outcomes? And you need people like that to slow the conversation down. Because in my classroom, I was, "All right, here's new tech. Let's go ahead and use it." And I needed people to slow me down and think, is this the best way to do that? And so if you are that teacher out there that says, "Hey, this is moving too fast," that's okay for you to voice those concerns. Because we do need people that say, "Hey, let's slow this down a little bit." Before we go through unintended consequences of using Tech A, B and C, we need people to say, "Let's slow it down." And the answer may be, "Hey, yep, this is what we want," but you've given that space for that conversation to take place. And then people moving forward with that technology or tool or whatever you name it, we have confidence that, oh, this is going to be the outcome that we want because we've taken the time to say, "Yeah, this is what we want to do with kids." And AI fits into that conversation as well. And I think this AI is a little bit different because it's moving so fast. The Department of Labor is estimating 85 million jobs will be replaced by AI, but at the same time, 97 million jobs will be created.

Ashley Mengwasser: Created. Wow.

Mike Afdahl: And so, we don't really have the time in order to say, "Let's take a few years to figure this out," because those jobs that are being replaced are happening now, and we need our kids to be equipped with those tools. But what that looks like for a 12th grader is very different than what it looks like for a kindergartner. And then whether that is VR, AR, AI, whatever acronym you want to throw in there, we have to look again, like we talked about, the age and stage, what's appropriate. And I may need someone who wants to be a drone pilot, they might need VR in their high school curriculum, but just because that's needed there, that doesn't mean that has to be done at a K-2 level as well.

Ashley Mengwasser: Exactly.

Mike Afdahl: But what are the experiences that we want to provide for them that give them those jobs and experiences as options that they can see themselves doing that? And so there's a stat I hung onto for a long time is that 84% of students make a decision about graduation by eighth grade. And this was when I was doing work on school improvement. But I've hung onto that because by the time they reach eighth grade, they already have made decisions, not just about graduation, but what their high school experience will look like. And what they do in high school is also what's preparing them for careers. And so, there is this preparing them for careers. And so there is this, as we talk about age and stages, there is this exposure that we need to get our kids exposed to because they may not know that computer science, digital arts, any technology field you want to throw in there, they may not know it's for them. But if we're waiting until eighth grade or high school to introduce them, they may not even see themselves in those professions. And we know professions, especially in technology, we need more STEM career-minded students, but that doesn't start in high school. But to be able to expose them to the technologies, that these are possible careers, what is appropriate for us in fourth grade to get you there? That you can envision yourself in those roles.

Ashley Mengwasser: Yeah. And we're thinking, this whole episode, along the lines of digital creativity and how students are using the numerous tools and resources you've mentioned to do that. There are an abundance of them. It can even be overwhelming for teachers. I feel like there's so much to keep up with. So clear out the weeds, Mike. Where can teachers begin to incorporate digital creativity into teaching practice?

Mike Afdahl: I think the first place that I would go is locally. And there are teachers in your building that are using those tools. And if you're an elementary age and you don't have someone in that building, it is okay for you to reach up. Because at the middle school and at the high school, they have teachers that are using those more robust tools. They have pathways that are using those digital technology tools. And it is a great resource for you to reach up and say, "I got a class of fifth graders, class of second-graders. What would help you, as a CTAE teacher, to help bridge that gap of getting from my classroom to your classroom?" And if you tell a CTAE high school teacher that they're like, oh, yes. Because what they want is more students in their programs. And so, to be able to reach up and say what would be helpful in getting those skills? The others, a lot of our districts have teams, and I'm going to throw in some of our media specialists as well. The Makerspace movement has taken hold in a lot of media centers. Those are great people to reach out to. And as a former instructional technologies coordinator, I loved when teachers reached out to me and said, "I want to do this. How can I do that?" And then I would get all excited. "Let me come into your classroom. Let me show you how this can work."

So there are people in your district that are excited about this work, and I would reach out locally. If you are afraid to reach out locally, you don't know who that person is, you need other outlets, there are three places that are great. One is podcasting. There are a lot of great education podcasts that are out there, especially this one.

Ashley Mengwasser: Thank you. Thanks for that, Mike.

Mike Afdahl: This is number one at the list. The other is YouTube. And I marvel at our age of students, that when they are looking to learn something, they're not waiting for class. When they're passionate about something, they're going to YouTube and they're figuring it out. And that is an avenue for you as well as a teacher, that I don't know how to do this. YouTube will-

Ashley Mengwasser: Go look into it.

Mike Afdahl: And the other is social media. There are several, I don't want to call them influencers, but there are passionate educators that are trying to impact the world. And they're on Instagram, they're on, don't call it Twitter, call it X. I call it Twix.

Ashley Mengwasser: I know, right? That's better, Twix. Then it implies chocolates involved. I'm on board.

Mike Afdahl: It's more enticing. Or Facebook. There's other groups that you can join. Because what I've known about educators is they don't want to keep their information to themselves. If they're passionate about something-

Ashley Mengwasser: They want to disseminate it.

Mike Afdahl: Yeah.

Ashley Mengwasser: Just like you. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for being here, Mike. You are the creative wind beneath our tech commands.

Mike Afdahl: Aww. I feel like Bette Midler should be here for this.

Ashley Mengwasser: Thanks so much, Mike. Teachers, what might you come up with now based on Mike's guidance to demonstrate the creative powers of technology? In your brainstorming, all I ask is just be careful in the shower. Okay? And that's another point for bathrooms as a hub for creative thinking as older research has shown. But I think we can rival that, educators. Maybe the next study will show how students on digital platforms are a source of fresh thinking themselves. I'm Ashley and I've enjoyed this creative exchange today. Come back next week with Classroom Conversations on the brain. We'll be here. Goodbye for now. Funding for Classroom Conversations is made possible through the School Climate Transformation Grant.