The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter - A GPB Podcast Special - Part 2

TRANSCRIPT:

Jimmy Carter: The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices. God gives us a capacity for choice. We can choose to alleviate suffering. We can choose to work together for peace. We can make these changes and we must.

Donna Lowry: You're listening to GPB. I'm Donna Lowry. This is the second part of our two part special program, reflecting on the life and legacy of the 39th president of the United States, Jimmy Carter. In 2014, to mark and in honor of Jimmy Carter's 90th birthday, GPB proudly presented First Family from Plains, an hour of recollection and reflection by President Carter and his wife, Rosalynn, who celebrated their 68th wedding anniversary in July of that year. Here's a clip from that documentary.

Jimmy Carter: Well, both our families had been in the Plains area since the 1800s, and in fact one of the farms that we own was founded in 1833 when the Indians left. So our roots were very deep in the Plains area. My mother was a registered nurse. And because of that, I was the first president born in a hospital.

Donna Lowry: In First Family from Plains. Jimmy Carter offers a touching recollection of when he and Rosalynn first entered each other's lives.

Jimmy Carter: We lived in Plains until I was 4 years old, and then I moved out onto the farm. But when I was 3 years old, my family lived next door to Rosalynn's family. So I was living next door to her when she was born. And I've probably looked through the cradle and saw this little baby. I never realized that she was going to be my future wife.

Judy Woodruff: Mrs. Carter, what — what does Plains and that part of the country, the state, mean to you?

Rosalynn Carter: Well, it's home. As Jimmy said, we always come back to Plains.

Donna Lowry: That was a clip from the GPB documentary First Family from Plains. You can watch the entire program on our website, GPB.org. You're listening to a look back on the life and legacy of Jimmy Carter. I'm Donna Lowry. We turn now to GPB's Peter Biello. In February 2023, he interviewed historian Kai Bird, who had just published a book about Carter's presidency. Bird said the four years Jimmy Carter spent as president of the United States were more consequential than most Americans acknowledge.

Peter Biello: Let's turn now to Kai Bird. He's the author of The Outlier: The Unfinished Presidency of Jimmy Carter. Kai Bird, thank you very much for speaking with me.

Kai Bird: Well, thank you for having me, Peter.

Peter Biello: You've had a chance to interview former President Carter many times over the years. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like to interview him? What was he like as an interviewee?

Kai Bird: You know, he he was certainly in my book, he's certainly the most hardworking and decent and most intelligent man to have occupied the White House in the 20th century. And, you know, he was also very tough to interview, he was, because he was so intelligent and so well read. And he was sharp and he was impatient with foolish or tired or old questions. And I had to really be on my toes. And furthermore, he was you know, here I was interviewing him about his four years in the White House, in large part. And it was 40 years later. And, you know, he really wasn't interested. What he was interested in was the activities of the Carter Center, wiping out Guinea worm disease in Africa and bringing peace to the Middle East and ending the Syrian civil war. And he was impatient with my questions about ancient history. So he was a difficult interview.

Peter Biello: What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding about the Carter presidency?

Kai Bird: The biggest misunderstanding is that people seem to think it was a failure. In fact, in those four years, he accomplished an enormous legislative agenda. Let me just, you know, run down a sort of short list of things that he did on the domestic front: He eventually mandated seatbelts and airbags for car manufacturers. And, you know, this eventually saved 9,000 to 10,000 American lives every year. He deregulated the airlines, making it possible, for the first time, for middle class Americans to fly in large numbers. He deregulated much of the natural gas industry, opening up the way for what we now have as an energy-independent economy. In foreign policy, he passed the Panama Canal Treaty, negotiated the SALT II arms control regime. He normalized relations with China. And most prominently, he negotiated the Camp David Peace Accords, taking Egypt off the battlefield for Israel and bringing at least a cold peace that still exists to this day between Israel and Egypt.

Peter Biello: Certainly a long list of accomplishments as president. What can you tell us about his skill at campaigning?

Kai Bird: Sure. Yeah. He — he actually transformed the Iowa caucuses into a major campaign event. And it was a brilliant strategy because, up until 1976, no presidential aspirant had taken the Iowa caucuses very seriously. But Carter did. And he did so very early on. And he went there repeatedly and slept on people's sofas and campaigned in every county and scored an upset surprise victory in the caucuses. And then that allowed him to go on to New Hampshire with his "Peanut Brigade" of Georgians, who turned out in large numbers in buses to go all over New Hampshire and again do door-to-door. He was very good at campaigning on a 1-to-1 basis and in small crowds and talking in an authentic fashion to small numbers of voters. He was good at it. He was relentless.

Peter Biello: I'm Peter Biello and I'm speaking with Carter biographer Kai Bird. You've spoken about how you wanted to be comfortable with your understanding of the American South before writing about Carter. Can you tell us a little more about that, about Carter as a Southerner and why that's important when it comes to understanding who he was?

Kai Bird: You know, Carter is very much a white Southern man, but very unusually so. He was a Southern white man who understood race and felt entirely comfortable in Black culture. He was raised as a child in Archer just down the road from Plains, a tiny little hamlet where he was virtually the only white kid. All his playmates were African-Americans. And he was comfortable. There wasn't a racist bone in his body. On the other hand, his father was a white supremacist who held all the conventional attitudes of a Southern white man at the turn of the century. And yet Jimmy Carter didn't come out that way. And I think the reason is his mother, Miss Lillian, who was, you know, represented a different Southern tradition: the tradition of the eccentric Southern woman who could speak her mind and say what she thought. And she imparted these values to her son, Jimmy. And he became a president who attempted to heal the racial divide in this country.

Peter Biello: Why would you say his presidency is particularly relevant now?

Kai Bird: Well, all the issues that he was grappling with in the 1970s are relevant today: energy, race, religion, climate change, health care. And in the world at large, you know, we're still grappling with that issue. He devoted a lot of his time to Israel, Palestine and bringing peace to that terribly difficult conflict. We're also, to this day, grappling with revolutionary Iran and this xenophobic religious regime in Iran. That, of course, was the nemesis of the Carter presidency because of the hostage crisis. So all these issues are things that he dealt with on a day-to-day basis and was sort of prophetic about. And he was very prescient in dealing with energy and race and climate change. He put solar panels, famously, on top of the White House. And yet, you know, in 1980, partly because he was sort of ahead of his times and was unwilling to sort of do the politically correct thing and was always trying to do the right thing, in 1980, he lost the election and America sort of essentially rejected his vision. And in retrospect, 40 years later, you know, he's — he's actually looking pretty good.

Peter Biello: I would be remiss if we didn't talk about Rosalynn, because that relationship has been so important to him. I was wondering what you can tell us about that relationship and how it — how it has influenced not just his presidency, but — but everything he's done over the years.

Kai Bird: It was essential. She, you know, grew up in Plains like he did. And they knew each other from a very young age. But he didn't first begin to pay attention to her until she was 18, 19 years old and he was in the Naval Academy. And he fell for her quickly and they got married. She was only 19. She was very shy. She had no idea that she was going to become, you know, the wife of a politician, but she, in fact, became over the years, his closest political adviser. And she was very astute in her political judgments, perhaps more astute than Jimmy. And they had, you know, famously a wonderful marriage. I last saw them both in July of 2021 in Plains, when they gathered 350 friends and colleagues to celebrate their 75th wedding anniversary. And, you know, it was a touching, a very touching and emotional event.

Peter Biello: Kai Bird, author of The Outlier: The Unfinished Presidency of Jimmy Carter. Thank you so much for speaking with me.

Kai Bird: Thank you, Peter.

Donna Lowry: Peter Biello speaking with historian and Jimmy Carter biographer Kai Bird in February 2023. Jimmy Carter had an impressive record of being an invaluable friend to the environment. He always believed protecting our natural resources was the key to a sustainable future. GPB's Grant Blankenship brings us this story on one of Carter's many environmental conservation efforts in Georgia.

Grant Blankenship: A little west of Thomaston is a place called Sprewell Bluff. Face the water and hiking trails lace the hill behind you, rising from the beach. In front of you, past shoals and a boulder people jump from in the summer, jutting 500 feet out of the water, is the Sprewell Bluff. West from the bluff, you'll find rare old-growth longleaf pine forest. A little north that blends with plants you'd find in the Appalachian Highlands like mountain laurel. Sprewell Bluff Park coordinator Sarah Williams works in the camp store back up the hill. Williams loves this place as much as visitors, although she says they aren't always sure what they're seeing.

Sarah Williams: You know, we have people even call this a lake down here. We're like, "No, it's a river, you know," so.

Grant Blankenship: The Flint River. And believe it or not, at one time, Sprewell Bluff came very close to being the bottom end of a lake, if not for Jimmy Carter. Janet Morgan Mapel remembers being excited about the idea of a new lake when she was a child.

Janet Morgan Mapel: I'm thinking water skiing. I think I had just learned to water ski and how nice it was when I'd go to lake, you know, and I didn't I wasn't a part of Dad's business or part of the agriculture or whatever, but I was a part of hearing him so concerned.

Grant Blankenship: Tom Morgan was Mapel's dad, and in the 1970s, when Mapel was in the eighth grade, her dad was a farmer and ran a fertilizer business in the town of Woodbury. Maple says her dad was concerned because he loved — maybe even lived for the trips down the Flint River that started right out their back door.

Janet Morgan Mapel: We would just slide the canoe down.

Grant Blankenship: Like otters down the riverbank and off they'd go past Pine Mountain. Dripping Rock. Pasley Shoals.

Janet Morgan Mapel: You've got the spider lilies down the way. You've got mussels. You've got the river shoal bass.

Grant Blankenship:  Up on the bluff, there are endangered red-cockaded woodpeckers and bachman's sparrows. There are coral snakes. But back in the 1970s, politically powerful entities, including the ironically named U.S. House member Jack Flint, wanted the dam. Tom Morgan would tell anyone who would listen to oppose the project of the Army Corps of Engineers that would have drowned the lilies, the shoals, and would have left a lake lapping at his door.

Janet Morgan Mapel: If he was going to give a speech, he would practice at home and I would hear him.

Grant Blankenship: The allies he won often shared traditions of farming and outdoor life. And luckily for them, one of their own was in the governor's mansion.

Janet Morgan Mapel: A lot of other outdoor people were involved in even getting Jimmy Carter to get on the river and go down it and just to see: Before you make any decision, see what you are going to be destroying.

Grant Blankenship: That's what Gov. Jimmy Carter did. "I personally canoed down the river twice," Carter writes in the preface to a 2001 book by Fred Brown and Sherri Smith called A Recreational Guide to the Flint River. And Carter was really taken by the beauty he saw. "The wildlife that exists in that river corridor," he wrote. "Otter, Fox, Muskrat, Beaver, Bobcat. You cannot describe it." On the other hand, Gov. Carter was a businessman who had a responsibility to consider the economic impact a new lake might make. Martin Doyle is a professor of environmental science and public policy at Duke University and an expert in U.S. water policy. He says this is where another, more fundamental side of Carter came into play.

Martin Doyle: You know, Carter was an engineer. I think he was a nuclear engineer from from Annapolis.

Grant Blankenship: In the U.S. Navy. And so Carter, the engineer —

Martin Doyle: The way that he seems to make sense of it is, is I got to go and look at these numbers myself.

Grant Blankenship: By numbers, he means the cash benefits the Army Corps of Engineers said would flow into communities around Sprewell Bluff after the dam was done.

Martin Doyle: And Carter kind of dug into them and he said, well, No. 1, I think that they're overestimating the benefits.

Grant Blankenship: Carter was far more blunt. He called the Corps of Engineers economic projections, quote, "a complete passel of lies." So Gov. Carter vetoed the Sprewell Bluff Dam. He ended it. Later. President Carter remained convinced he'd found a pattern of overpromising around federal dam projects. He would veto projects across the country.

Martin Doyle: And that — that pivot in particular sets the dam building industry back on its heels.

Grant Blankenship: Some got built anyway. But Martin Doyle says before he left office, Carter left behind some of his way of thinking about dams and how they should be built. And it had to do with who was paying.

Martin Doyle: If the federal government was spending — was paying for 100% of the cost, there's no reason for a congressional representative or a senator or the local community to not want a project.

Grant Blankenship: Or as Carter wrote, one of the congressman's goals in life was to have built in his district a notable dam at federal government expense that created a lake that could be named for him. For Carter, this was the very definition of pork barrel politics.

Martin Doyle: And what Carter started was what was called a local sponsorship: that the local benefiting community had to put up about 25% of the costs of a dam.

Grant Blankenship: And once the people in town, like at the Chamber of Commerce or in the grocery store, were told to dig in to what felt like their pockets for millions of dollars, they'd have to ask themselves, "How much do I really want to water ski?"

Martin Doyle: Exactly right. And do you do you value it that much?

Grant Blankenship: It was a fiscally conservative move.

Martin Doyle: In this way. He was Reagan before Reagan was Reagan.

Grant Blankenship: Under President Ronald Reagan, the mandated local buy-in for a federal dam would ramp up to 50% of the price tag. Doyle says that, plus a general lack of easy places to dam meant half as many new projects in the decade after Carter left Washington. Jimmy Carter apparently never quit caring for the Flint River. As recently as 2008, Georgia politicians again floated the idea of a Sprewell Bluff dam, this time to satisfy a thirsty Atlanta. Carter, by then a Nobel Peace laureate, spoke for the river again, and the idea faded away. "Lakes and dams are everywhere," Carter said in the preface to that 2001 guidebook. "But to experience something that is undisturbed and has its natural beauty," he asked. "You hope and pray that it will be there a thousand years in the future, still just as beautiful and undisturbed." For GPB News I'm Grant Blankenship in Upson County.

Peter Biello: GPB is reflecting on the life and legacy of President Jimmy Carter. From his humble beginnings in Plains to his global humanitarian efforts, President Carter's impact shaped Georgia and the world. GPB's daily news podcast Georgia Today will have the latest updates on memorial services, celebrations of his life, and stories from those his inspired. Listen to Georgia Today wherever you get your podcasts.

Donna Lowry: As we continue to reflect on the life and legacy of President Jimmy Carter, we go now to Manuel's Tavern, a historic bar and eatery located a few blocks from the Carter Center in Atlanta. Opened in 1956, it has been a watering hole for Georgia Democrats since the early '70s. Those from all over the state running for public office would come for Manuel's to seek the powerful endorsement of owner and former DeKalb County CEO Manuel Maloof. And Jimmy Carter was no different. GPB's Jake Cook explores the long relationship between President Carter and Manuel's Tavern in this audio postcard.

Angel Fuster: My name is Angelo Fuster. I've been coming here for many years. I came to Atlanta to go to Emory, and that was in the mid '70s. I was working in the mayor's office and Manuel was the CEO of DeKalb County. So we connected in that — in that fashion and we eventually became friends.

Laura Dotson: I'm Laura Dotson. I've heard about Jimmy Carter as long as I've worked here. There are paintings and photographs of him all over the building that are, you know, addressed to Manuel himself. He announced his gubernatorial campaign here at the tavern as well.

Angel Fuster: When Jimmy ran for governor the first time, that he didn't make it. And then when he ran again, Manuel supported him.

Laura Dotson: Just goes way back, as far as I'm aware, him doing politics in Georgia.

Angel Fuster: Manuel had great influence in the Democratic Party, not just in metro Atlanta, but in Georgia. Almost any Democrat running for any office in the state, local or statewide would come to Manuel's Tavern to get the blessing of Manuel Maloof. So Jimmy did, too.

Laura Dotson: And the back bar is where he would have his New Year's brunch. Since the pandemic, he hasn't been back just for, like, I think, safety reasons. But we'd normally kind of clear off the table and he'd sit at that big table with his family, but obviously milling around the room and chatting with everyone. I've heard he's very personable. He's always like holding the door open for, you know, complete strangers and stuff like that.

Angel Fuster: That whole property where the Carter Center is today had been condemned by the state of Georgia for a highway. It would have run right through a number of neighborhoods in Atlanta, destroying them. And so there was great opposition to that. And the tavern was the gathering place for the opposition. Jimmy, he was involved in that effort and that whole area became the Carter Center. And they had a groundbreaking and they had everything. And then everybody came over here to have a beer or two.

Laura Dotson: Habitat for Humanity, they come in every Saturday. I'm not sure how many builds they've done with him, but I know that he was active into his 90s. That's someone who really cares about other people.

Angel Fuster: We were doing a surprise birthday party for for Manuel and my job was to keep Manuel away from that section of the bar where we were going to have the surprise event. I saw the security that always preceded Carter. I did not expect him, but I knew then that Carter was coming and he and his wife came, came to our booth, where we are sitting now. So they chatted for a while. And then Carter said, "Manuel I'm sorry that I'm going to miss a birthday party for you." You know, I kind of open my eyes big and kind of shook my head, trying to convey to Carter, don't do it. And so he said, "Whenever there is one." You know, he had it. He picked it up, you know, And then a little bit after that, they left. And then Manuel said to me, "okay, come on, let's go to the party in the other room."

Laura Dotson: I studied political science in school, so it's neat to work in a place that's a piece of history. It's cool to have a relationship like that with a president.

Donna Lowry: GPB's Jake Cook with an audio postcard from Manuel's Tavern. Jimmy Carter led a storied life that included many contributions to politics and culture. The common denominator in all his efforts was one thing: Genuine passion. One of the greatest of these passions was music. He campaigned with the Allman Brothers, brought jazz to the White House and sang hymns with Willie Nelson. In 2021, GPB's Stephen Fowler brought us this feature on the musical life of Jimmy Carter.

 

Stephen Fowler: He may not have played saxophone like Bill Clinton or composed piano tunes like Richard Nixon, but music has played an important role in Jimmy Carter’s life from the start. 

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Stephen Fowler: When Carter joined the Navy as a young man, a frequent sound at the academy was the Navy hymn, "Eternal Father Strong to Save." Written as a poem in 1860, the song was also a favorite of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and also performed at the Capitol where John F. Kennedy’s body would lie in state.

C. Edward Spann, author of a book on presidential hymns, writes that Carter, a lifelong Baptist, asked the Navy Glee Club to perform the number at his state funeral as well.

While governor of Georgia, Carter supported anti-piracy legislation and became acquainted with the musicians of Macon’s Capricorn Records like Otis Redding, Charlie Daniels and the Allman Brothers, heard here performing their song "Hotlanta."

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Stephen Fowler: Carter’s run for president struck a chord with many musicians: The Allman Brothers held campaign concerts, the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra’s Robert Shaw wrote a $1,000 check and folk singer Oscar Brand sang the campaign song “Why Not The Best?”

Carter’s appreciation for music extended far beyond hymns and Southern rock songs, as a 1978 jazz concert at the White House brought to light.

Everyone from Herbie Hancock to Dizzy Gillespie played, and the latter invited Carter up to the stage to perform the vocals to the tune “Salt Peanuts,” as heard on this clip from the BBC:

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Stephen Fowler: Carter told The New York Times then that he had been listening to jazz from a young age and called it an art form that helped break down racial barriers.

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Stephen Fowler: Jimmy Carter had also been the subject of many musical odes, ranging in style from disco ...

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Stephen Fowler: …to a western-ish tone poem.

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Stephen Fowler: It’s not just from his time in office, either. Consider this 2011 song from Louisiana rapper Lil Wayne fittingly called “President Carter.”

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Stephen Fowler: Jimmy Carter stayed lifelong friends with many musicians who impacted his life, like Willie Nelson. Hearkening back to his Baptist roots, one of his favorite songs to sing is the hymn "Amazing Grace."

Here’s a YouTube recording of Carter and his wife, Rosalynn, singing with their friend Willie Nelson at a recent concert in Atlanta:

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Stephen Fowler: So, any time you see pictures of the former president building a house with Habitat for Humanity or speaking out about global issues, just know that he was probably doing it with a song in his heart. For GPB News, I'm Stephen Fowler.

 

Donna Lowry: You're listening to Georgia Public Broadcasting. That concludes the second part of our two-part special program, reflecting on the life and legacy of the 39th president of the United States, Jimmy Carter. For more on Jimmy Carter, visit GPB.org/News. I'm Donna Lowry. Thanks for listening.